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Pete Hautman has had numerous novels published since 1993. His 2004 coming-of-age novel "Godless" won the National Book Award for Young People's Literature. His latest book, "Blank Confession," is about a teen who walks into a police station and announces that he killed someone.

Hautman visits Writers Talk where he shares insight into his novels, and explains what qualifies as a successful day of writing for him.

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00:00:00
00:00:09	From the Center for the Study
00:00:10	and Teaching of Writing at The
00:00:11	Ohio State University, this is
00:00:12	Writers Talk.
00:00:14	I'm Doug Danger.
00:00:15	Pete Hautman published his
00:00:17	first novel Drawing Dead in
00:00:18	1993 and has published nineteen
00:00:20	other novels since then,
00:00:22	including 2004's Godless, which
00:00:25	won The National Book Award for
00:00:27	Young People's Literature.
00:00:28	He's also co-written three
00:00:29	Bloodwater Mysteries with Mary
00:00:31	Logue and maintains an active
00:00:33	interest in both poker and
00:00:35	filming online book trailers in
00:00:37	which he gets shocked, so we'll
00:00:39	ask him about that.
00:00:40	Welcome to Writers Talk, Pete
00:00:41	Hautman.
00:00:41	Thank you.
00:00:42	Happy to be here.
00:00:43	Well let's start with the
00:00:44	most shocking part of the intro
00:00:46	and talk about the book
00:00:48	trailers to your latest book,
00:00:49	Blank Confessions.
00:00:50	First, can you set Blank
00:00:52	Confessions up for me?
00:00:53	Blank Confession opens up
00:00:55	with a sixteen-year-old boy
00:00:57	walking into a police station
00:01:00	saying that he's killed
00:01:01	somebody, and it's a story told
00:01:03	from two points of view.
00:01:05	It's the point of view of the
00:01:06	policeman that's interviewing
00:01:08	the kid and then from the point
00:01:09	of view from the kid's friend,
00:01:11	Mikey, who of course is telling
00:01:14	a completely different story
00:01:16	than Shane, the main character.
00:01:19	So a lot of it takes place in
00:01:20	an interview room with a very
00:01:24	frustrated policeman and a very
00:01:25	enigmatic Shane Blank, the main
00:01:29	character.
00:01:30	Ok.
00:01:32	What was the writing process
00:01:32	like for you on this book?
00:01:34	How did you get into the
00:01:35	character?
00:01:36	What made you want to work on
00:01:39	sort of a genre, not a genre
00:01:41	film, but a well established
00:01:42	kind of police procedural
00:01:44	outlook and then do something
00:01:45	different with it?
00:01:46	One of my favorite stories
00:01:51	is Shane, by Jack Schaefer,
00:01:54	which is a book written for
00:01:55	younger readers, was published
00:01:57	in 1952, and made into an even
00:02:01	more famous film starring, was
00:02:05	it Alan Ladd?
00:02:06	Yeah, I think so.
00:02:08	Or Gary Cooper, I can't
00:02:09	remember.
00:02:10	No, I think it was Alan
00:02:10	Ladd.
00:02:13	I loved that film and I
00:02:14	loved all it's iterations.
00:02:17	The hundreds and hundreds of
00:02:18	times its been made over and
00:02:19	over again.
00:02:20	A stranger comes to town and
00:02:22	takes the side of the
00:02:23	downtrodden to battle against a
00:02:24	more powerful and usually evil
00:02:28	oppressor.
00:02:31	I mean, most of Clint
00:02:32	Eastwood's westerns follow that
00:02:33	formula and I wanted to write
00:02:36	that formula, but I didn't
00:02:39	really want to do it was a
00:02:39	western.
00:02:40	I wanted to take that classic
00:02:42	shape of a story and do it in a
00:02:45	modern setting so I chose to do
00:02:46	it in a medium-sized city,
00:02:49	present day, with motorcycles
00:02:52	instead of horses and stun guns
00:02:56	and tasers instead of guns.
00:03:01	And as far as the police
00:03:04	procedural part, I had the idea
00:03:06	for this particular sort of a
00:03:08	cop that would interview the
00:03:10	young offender and kind of tell
00:03:12	the story backwards.
00:03:13	I wanted to try a different way
00:03:16	of organizing the story,
00:03:19	something that I hadn't done
00:03:21	before, which is what I kind of
00:03:24	strive for in most of my books,
00:03:26	to try something different each
00:03:27	time.
00:03:29	And I think your book
00:03:29	trailers are an attempt at that
00:03:30	as well.
00:03:31	You've got that book trailer
00:03:32	for Blank Confession, which
00:03:34	features you in a room.
00:03:37	My acting debut and you know
00:03:40	Philip Seymour Hoffman has
00:03:43	nothing to worry about.
00:03:44	Really?
00:03:45	Ok.
00:03:46	Yeah.
00:03:48	I'd never acted before in any
00:03:51	sense of the word and I had
00:03:53	decided to do this trailer and
00:03:55	I had an idea for kind of a
00:03:56	goofy little story that sort of
00:03:59	relates to the story in Blank
00:04:01	Confession, but not really.
00:04:03	I was very self-conscious about
00:04:04	doing a book trailer, too,
00:04:05	because a book trailer, who
00:04:06	watches book trailers?
00:04:08	I don't know.
00:04:09	You know I don't know who
00:04:10	watches them, I don't know if
00:04:11	they make people buy books, but
00:04:13	I just kind of had this idea I
00:04:15	wanted to try to produce a
00:04:17	short, little movie with me as
00:04:21	the main character.
00:04:22	So I got to sing, which was one
00:04:24	of the most horrifying
00:04:25	experiences that I've ever had
00:04:27	is listening to myself sing on
00:04:28	tape.
00:04:31	But did you write the
00:04:32	trailer?
00:04:33	Did you write it so you would
00:04:34	force yourself to sing?
00:04:35	I wrote it because I thought
00:04:37	me trying to sing would be
00:04:39	funny and I guess some people
00:04:42	may be amused by it and some
00:04:43	people might cover their ears
00:04:45	and run screaming out of the
00:04:45	room.
00:04:47	After viewing the trailer, you
00:04:50	know in the process of editing
00:04:52	it and so forth, after viewing
00:04:53	the trailer by the tenth or
00:04:56	fifteenth time I heard myself
00:04:57	singing "Roxanne," I just
00:05:00	turned the sound off.
00:05:03	I mean I couldn't even bare it
00:05:04	anymore, but it was fun to do.
00:05:07	And the whole movie making
00:05:09	process, you know.
00:05:10	It's three minutes, three
00:05:12	one-minute segments on YouTube
00:05:14	and it took about six hours,
00:05:16	which is by movie making
00:05:18	standards, pretty quick.
00:05:20	It's a very meticulous kind of
00:05:21	process and I know a lot more
00:05:24	about it than I did.
00:05:25	I would probably write it
00:05:26	differently now if I was going
00:05:27	to do it over again.
00:05:28	What would be different
00:05:29	about it if you were to write
00:05:29	it now?
00:05:30	I thought a couple of the
00:05:32	jokes didn't quite work.
00:05:35	I would have to look at it to
00:05:37	find specifics.
00:05:38	Little ways that the lines,
00:05:40	particularly the ones delivered
00:05:42	by the other actor.
00:05:44	Because I knew how my lines
00:05:46	were going to sound coming out
00:05:47	of me but I didn't know what
00:05:48	his lines were going to sound
00:05:49	like until they happened.
00:05:52	You say on your blog, "Hey,
00:05:53	when did authors go from being
00:05:55	faceless loners to being
00:05:57	indefatigable, self-promoting
00:05:59	public figures with state of
00:06:00	the art websites, publicists,
00:06:02	booking agents, multimedia
00:06:03	presentations, blogs,
00:06:05	billboards and coming soon, no
00:06:06	doubt, skywriters." So tell me
00:06:09	about, as an author, your take
00:06:11	on diving into all this.
00:06:12	You also say at some point
00:06:14	maybe this started with Mark
00:06:15	Twain and sort of some of the
00:06:16	self-promotion he did.
00:06:18	In the time that you've been
00:06:20	writing books, has it really
00:06:21	changed?
00:06:22	You feel like it's very
00:06:23	different than it used to be.
00:06:24	Yeah, it is.
00:06:27	Well when I started publishing,
00:06:28	which was in the early 1990s,
00:06:31	the main way that books were
00:06:33	promoted was through book tours
00:06:35	and publishers would sent
00:06:37	authors to ten, twenty, thirty,
00:06:39	forty, fifty bookstores and
00:06:42	people would come in to see the
00:06:44	author, to meet the author, and
00:06:45	to get their book signed.
00:06:47	Well by the end of the 1990s,
00:06:50	in fact in 2001, I went to do a
00:06:53	book signing in Chicago and my
00:06:56	publisher put me up at Four
00:06:58	Seasons Hotel and it was all
00:07:00	very expensive and I had one
00:07:02	book signing in the whole city.
00:07:04	I was sure it was going to be
00:07:05	packed because I knew I had a
00:07:07	lot of readers there and I
00:07:08	hadn't been to Chicago in a
00:07:09	long time.
00:07:11	And I went to the bookstore, it
00:07:13	was one of the Barbara's
00:07:15	bookstores, and two people
00:07:17	showed up.
00:07:21	More than anything, I was
00:07:22	embarrassed.
00:07:23	I was embarrassed because I
00:07:24	knew this cost my publisher
00:07:26	over a thousand dollars to send
00:07:27	me there and to sell two books.
00:07:30	So I asked the bookstore owner,
00:07:31	I said, "What, is there like a
00:07:34	Bears and a Cubs game on the
00:07:37	same time today?
00:07:38	What's happening?" He said,
00:07:40	"Well, we've had thirty-one
00:07:43	author appearances at the store
00:07:46	this month so far." It was only
00:07:48	like the eighteenth of the
00:07:49	month.
00:07:51	And what happened was that like
00:07:54	any other marketing idea, when
00:07:55	everyone's starts doing it,
00:07:58	then the public becomes jaded.
00:08:00	Another author's in town, oh.
00:08:02	Let me know when Justin Bieber
00:08:03	shows up.
00:08:09	When I first started, that was
00:08:11	an effective way to bring books
00:08:12	to people and now that's not so
00:08:14	true, so people are trying
00:08:15	other things.
00:08:17	They're trying various
00:08:19	Internet-based things like book
00:08:20	trailers and blogs and so
00:08:22	forth.
00:08:24	How do you like doing them?
00:08:27	How did you like doing the
00:08:28	movie?
00:08:29	I loved doing the movie
00:08:31	because it was challenging and
00:08:32	it was new and it was something
00:08:33	that I hadn't done before, and
00:08:34	I'm going to do another one.
00:08:35	I'm going to do an animated one
00:08:36	for The Big Crunch.
00:08:38	I'm working on that now.
00:08:40	That's your novel that comes
00:08:41	out in January?
00:08:42	That's in January.
00:08:44	And I'm doing an animation that
00:08:45	I'm building on my iPad, which
00:08:47	is really pretty fun.
00:08:50	Is that going to be
00:08:51	something that follows along
00:08:52	with the book?
00:08:53	Does it build on something in
00:08:54	the book?
00:08:55	Or is it sort of a stand alone
00:08:57	with the same characters?
00:08:58	No.
00:09:00	Well, the name of the book is
00:09:02	The Big Crunch, which is a
00:09:04	theoretical, cosmologic event
00:09:06	when the Big Bang reverses
00:09:08	itself and everything crunches
00:09:09	back together.
00:09:10	What I'm doing is an animation
00:09:11	of the Big Bang and the big
00:09:12	crunch.
00:09:15	We'll see how it works.
00:09:16	Do you feel that these
00:09:20	things are representing your
00:09:21	books clearly or are they just
00:09:23	advertisement for it?
00:09:24	What's your take on it in terms
00:09:26	of art?
00:09:29	Well, bottom line is that
00:09:31	they're the same thing as when
00:09:32	I was four years old and I
00:09:34	painted my face with my mom's
00:09:35	lipstick and ran around telling
00:09:37	everyone to look at me.
00:09:39	I don't know if they sell
00:09:43	books.
00:09:45	If they do sell books then I'll
00:09:47	feel compelled to keep doing
00:09:50	more of them, but they're fun.
00:09:55	I enjoy it.
00:09:58	You know, I couldn't justify
00:10:00	the expense of doing the Blank
00:10:01	Confession video in terms of
00:10:04	the book sales that it's likely
00:10:06	to produce, the numbers don't
00:10:07	make sense, but in terms of my
00:10:11	own experience and keeping
00:10:13	myself entertained and maybe
00:10:14	entertaining a small group of
00:10:16	people that might come across
00:10:17	it on the Internet, that's
00:10:19	valuable to me.
00:10:21	Now you've got a blog that
00:10:22	has recipes, discussions of
00:10:24	writing, and your favorite
00:10:25	one-star reviews of your books
00:10:27	on Amazon where people comment
00:10:30	on your book who had received
00:10:34	it and it had been bent and
00:10:35	folded and for this you got a
00:10:37	one star.
00:10:39	That's right.
00:10:42	So it's a really difficult
00:10:43	moment for you, I assume.
00:10:44	I want to say something
00:10:44	about that.
00:10:46	That particular one-star review
00:10:49	was just, the packaging was
00:10:50	just terrible, the cover was
00:10:51	bent, so she gives it a
00:10:52	one-star review, which possibly
00:10:55	impacts the number of books I
00:10:57	sell.
00:10:58	So I was curious about this
00:10:59	person and I went and I looked
00:11:00	at her other reviews and she's
00:11:02	in the packaging business and
00:11:04	all of her reviews have to do
00:11:07	with product packaging.
00:11:11	Well, you know, how many
00:11:13	different kinds of product
00:11:14	packaging can you have for
00:11:16	books?
00:11:16	That seems sort of an odd
00:11:17	thing.
00:11:18	I don't know.
00:11:18	I'm waiting for the one that's
00:11:19	like the clamshell you have to
00:11:21	rent a saw to get it open.
00:11:23	I think that would be a great
00:11:24	way to package books.
00:11:25	Well, if you could send it
00:11:26	back it might be a good idea if
00:11:27	it were that sturdy, if it were
00:11:29	reusable book packaging.
00:11:31	So does blogging feel like
00:11:33	writing to you?
00:11:34	Do you feel?
00:11:35	Yeah.
00:11:36	Tell me about that.
00:11:37	Well, my blog, as you
00:11:40	mention, has a lot of different
00:11:41	things.
00:11:41	I have some very specific
00:11:44	instructions on how to poach
00:11:45	eggs.
00:11:47	I tried some of those
00:11:48	instructions, by the way.
00:11:49	Did it work?
00:11:50	Well, I'm not familiar with
00:11:52	poached eggs, I have to start
00:11:53	off with saying.
00:11:53	But for something I'd never
00:11:55	eaten before it was eatable and
00:11:56	so I think that it went well
00:11:58	and there wasn't a lot of white
00:11:59	left in the pan when I was
00:12:00	done.
00:12:01	Ok.
00:12:02	Because I think you
00:12:02	recommend stirring it.
00:12:04	No, no, no.
00:12:05	Do not recommend stirring
00:12:06	it.
00:12:07	I knew there was a difference.
00:12:08	Stirring is for martinis.
00:12:10	Is that a different kind of
00:12:11	poached egg?
00:12:15	You have a poached egg martini
00:12:16	as well?
00:12:17	No, but I'm working on a
00:12:18	martini recipe and I'll be
00:12:21	posting within the next two
00:12:22	weeks my hashbrown
00:12:24	instructions.
00:12:25	But the blog is like a
00:12:27	catchall.
00:12:28	Anything that's on my mind is
00:12:30	going to go on the blog.
00:12:31	It isn't always necessarily
00:12:32	book-related.
00:12:33	It could be cooking stuff,
00:12:36	mushrooms I found interesting.
00:12:38	I think yesterday morning I
00:12:40	blogged about what happened to
00:12:43	the pumpkin that was sitting on
00:12:45	my front steps when the
00:12:46	squirrels found it.
00:12:47	Ravaged.
00:12:48	Just completely ravaged.
00:12:49	There was less than half a
00:12:50	pumpkin left, it was
00:12:51	horrifying.
00:12:52	I didn't know that
00:12:53	squirrels would eat pumpkins.
00:12:54	I didn't either and I would
00:12:55	have thought it was a deer or
00:12:55	something except I saw the
00:12:57	squirrel out there on it eating
00:12:59	it twice.
00:13:00	Really?
00:13:00	And there were squirrel tracks
00:13:01	going away to it that led you
00:13:02	to believe.
00:13:05	So there are very important
00:13:06	things on my blog.
00:13:07	Actually it's kind of like a
00:13:08	look into my brain in the most
00:13:10	useless way possible.
00:13:13	Do you track that?
00:13:14	Do you look at the kind of
00:13:15	responses you get back from
00:13:16	your readers?
00:13:18	Yeah.
00:13:19	I like at look at the comments.
00:13:20	Every time somebody comments I
00:13:21	get a little e-mail.
00:13:24	So does that impact you as a
00:13:24	writer?
00:13:26	You think they like this, I'm
00:13:28	going to give them more of this
00:13:29	on the blog or maybe I'll talk
00:13:32	about poached eggs more in my
00:13:32	books or something like that?
00:13:35	I'm curious about the feedback
00:13:36	to you as a writer.
00:13:38	Yeah, it matters to me, it
00:13:39	matters to me.
00:13:44	If I could say the one more
00:13:45	important thing that I came to
00:13:47	learn and accept when I was
00:13:49	younger when I was first
00:13:49	starting writing, was that most
00:13:51	writers start out by seeing
00:13:56	writing as being a way that
00:13:57	they can express themselves,
00:14:00	this is kind of what draws them
00:14:01	to it and it's only later that
00:14:04	they come to the point, not all
00:14:05	of them do and not all of them
00:14:06	need to, where they say, "Oh,
00:14:08	this is an act of
00:14:09	communication.
00:14:10	This is about the communication
00:14:12	and if I write this and nobody
00:14:16	reads it, it's almost as though
00:14:16	it doesn't exist." Now that's
00:14:18	not true in the case of
00:14:20	journaling when people write to
00:14:21	get their own thoughts sorted
00:14:23	out in their own head.
00:14:24	But most people that want
00:14:26	people to buy their books and
00:14:29	read their articles, they come
00:14:31	to this realization that this
00:14:33	is about communication.
00:14:34	So if something doesn't
00:14:36	communicate in a way that's
00:14:37	satisfying or successful, then
00:14:41	it requires some though and
00:14:42	some revision.
00:14:43	And I'll go back even in
00:14:44	something like on my blog and
00:14:45	somebody will make a comment
00:14:47	and I might go back and change
00:14:48	the blog if I feel if I've
00:14:50	miscommunicated something.
00:14:52	That leads me to one of the
00:14:54	questions that I wanted to get
00:14:56	to you about, because I think
00:14:57	you've already answered it, but
00:14:58	I'll see whether I'm right in
00:14:59	this one.
00:15:00	Your website had "The top ten
00:15:02	worst reasons to write a young
00:15:03	adult novel," so I'm thinking
00:15:04	that your answer for number
00:15:09	one: for fame, number two: for
00:15:11	fortune, number three: to tell
00:15:12	teens how they should act,
00:15:15	number four: to tell teens what
00:15:15	it was like when you were a
00:15:16	kid, and it goes down.
00:15:19	So you didn't put down there
00:15:20	the ten best reasons to write
00:15:24	and the top one seems to be
00:15:25	communication for you.
00:15:28	Well yeah, but that's not
00:15:30	specially a reason to write a
00:15:33	YA novel, but it's a specific
00:15:36	reason to write.
00:15:37	Probably the top reason.
00:15:40	I haven't actually edited this
00:15:43	down in my head, but probably
00:15:44	the main reason that I write YA
00:15:47	novels instead of something
00:15:48	else is because that's when my
00:15:53	reading experiences in my life
00:15:55	experience were the most
00:15:57	intense and the most memorable.
00:15:59	You know, it was those books I
00:16:01	read between the ages ten and
00:16:04	sixteen probably that had the
00:16:06	most impact on me as a writer.
00:16:07	It doesn't necessarily relate
00:16:11	to the quality of the work
00:16:12	either.
00:16:13	I mean I was as profoundly
00:16:13	affected by From Russia with
00:16:17	Love as I was by The Idiot,
00:16:21	which I probably read within a
00:16:26	year or two of each other and
00:16:28	they both had a big effect on
00:16:29	me.
00:16:30	Lord of the Rings was huge, I
00:16:31	mean I lived inside that book.
00:16:35	I read the whole thing, I went
00:16:36	back to the beginning and I
00:16:37	read the whole thing again.
00:16:40	Well I notice that in some
00:16:41	of your stuff because you've
00:16:42	got a list of some of the
00:16:45	authors that really impacted
00:16:47	you and some of the favorite
00:16:49	ones are: Octavia Butler,
00:16:51	Samuel Delany, J.R.R.
00:16:52	Tolkien and I thought I had
00:16:55	glommed onto something new
00:16:58	because you're starting a
00:16:59	sci-fi trilogy, the Klaatu
00:17:00	Diskos, which just got picked
00:17:02	up.
00:17:04	It will be out in 2012.
00:17:06	Right.
00:17:07	So I though, oh, you're
00:17:08	moving into science fiction
00:17:09	from young adult, but rash with
00:17:10	sci-fi.
00:17:13	What attracts you about science
00:17:13	fiction and do you see it as a
00:17:15	departure from what you've been
00:17:17	doing in young adult?
00:17:20	I don't know that I really
00:17:26	see it as a departure.
00:17:27	I wrote two other sci-fi books
00:17:28	before, Mr.
00:17:29	Was and Hole in the Sky, which
00:17:30	were very different kinds of
00:17:32	science fiction.
00:17:34	Hole in the Sky was an
00:17:36	after-the-apocalypse type
00:17:38	science fiction, after most of
00:17:40	the people in the world are
00:17:40	dead and how the survivors get
00:17:41	along.
00:17:44	Mr.
00:17:44	Was was a very personal little
00:17:47	time travel story.
00:17:50	Klaatu Diskos is another time
00:17:51	travel story and it feels
00:17:54	pretty much the same to me as
00:17:57	other writing that I've done.
00:17:59	I'm also working on a fantasy,
00:18:03	working on a book with elves
00:18:08	because I really, really want
00:18:09	to write about elves.
00:18:11	I didn't know if you meant
00:18:12	as co-writers with the elves or
00:18:14	what because that's the Tolkien
00:18:16	influence, which I didn't mean
00:18:18	to sort of lump in with Butler
00:18:20	and Delany.
00:18:21	My elves are nasty.
00:18:24	Tolkien's elves have some good
00:18:26	personal qualities.
00:18:27	My elves have no good personal
00:18:29	qualities.
00:18:30	Why is that?
00:18:30	What made you decide elves were
00:18:31	bad?
00:18:32	I introduced them into the
00:18:34	story and they started doing
00:18:36	these really mean things and
00:18:38	they just sort of evolved that
00:18:40	way.
00:18:41	Walk me through a day of
00:18:42	writing for you.
00:18:43	A day of writing?
00:18:43	A day of writing.
00:18:44	And tell me what makes it a
00:18:45	successful day.
00:18:47	Well, coffee first and then
00:18:52	I sit down and look at what
00:18:55	I've been working on.
00:18:56	I'm usually working on several
00:18:57	novels, not simultaneously, but
00:19:02	in any given week I'll probably
00:19:03	work on three different books
00:19:05	at one time or another.
00:19:06	And I'll decide what I want to
00:19:07	work on and I'll usually type
00:19:11	something, a page or two, I'll
00:19:14	look at it, I'll go back, I'll
00:19:16	rewrite what serves me as an
00:19:17	outline because what I just
00:19:19	wrote completely screws up what
00:19:21	I thought I was going to do.
00:19:24	It's a lot of back and forth.
00:19:26	Then I'll lay down on the sofa
00:19:28	and I'll close my eyes and I'll
00:19:29	think for a little bit,
00:19:30	sometimes I fall asleep,
00:19:31	sometimes I wake up and I write
00:19:32	some more.
00:19:34	Sometimes I go for a walk, but
00:19:35	it kind of goes in like little
00:19:38	spurts through the day.
00:19:40	A successful day of writing is,
00:19:43	well there are two kinds.
00:19:43	There's one when I write a
00:19:45	bunch of pages and to me a
00:19:46	bunch of pages would be more
00:19:47	than three, almost never more
00:19:51	than seven or eight in a day.
00:19:54	And that feels good because I
00:19:55	have achieved mass.
00:19:57	I have increased the mass, the
00:20:00	subjective, the theoretical
00:20:03	mass of the manuscript.
00:20:05	The other kind of successful
00:20:06	day is when I figure something
00:20:09	out about a story and I go,
00:20:10	"ohhh yeah.
00:20:14	I can make Darth Vader Luke's
00:20:15	father." You know, when
00:20:18	something clicks and comes
00:20:20	together and a story wraps back
00:20:21	on itself and all of a sudden.
00:20:22	Because as I'm writing I'll
00:20:24	have all these little threads,
00:20:26	like Mary and I read all of
00:20:28	each other's work and so she
00:20:30	was reading the first volume of
00:20:34	Klaatu Diskos and she says,
00:20:35	"Why do you have this character
00:20:36	Will in here?
00:20:37	He doesn't need to be there."
00:20:39	And I go, "Well I'm saving
00:20:41	him," and she goes, "Well what
00:20:42	for?" I said, "I don't know
00:20:45	yet, you know.
00:20:47	But he's there if I need him
00:20:49	and I mention him from time to
00:20:51	time," and I said, "Maybe in
00:20:51	book two he's going to become
00:20:53	important" and she said, "What
00:20:55	if he doesn't?" and I said,
00:20:56	"Well then I'll go back and
00:20:57	take him out of book one." It's
00:21:01	like all these little threads
00:21:02	and trying to have them touch
00:21:03	each other in ways that feel
00:21:04	significant.
00:21:07	So I can have a day where I
00:21:09	have negative, where I actually
00:21:11	delete three pages instead of
00:21:12	write three pages.
00:21:14	And if I figure something out
00:21:15	that I feel improves the shape
00:21:18	and the strength of the story,
00:21:20	then that would be a successful
00:21:21	day.
00:21:22	It's also a successful day if I
00:21:24	get a big check in the mail.
00:21:25	I'm looking for those days
00:21:27	as well, if you could help me
00:21:28	out with that I would really
00:21:29	appreciate it.
00:21:31	You've talked about you said
00:21:33	'read each other's work" Mary
00:21:35	Logue.
00:21:37	You read each other's work.
00:21:38	And you also co-authored some
00:21:39	of these mysteries together.
00:21:40	Tell me the difference between,
00:21:42	I assume it's quantitative, the
00:21:45	difference between reading each
00:21:47	other's stuff and commenting on
00:21:48	it and writing together.
00:21:50	How do you work those
00:21:51	differently?
00:21:52	Well, Mary and I knew each
00:21:56	other as members of a critique
00:21:57	group before we became
00:21:59	romantically involved.
00:22:02	So we've related as writers
00:22:05	ever since we met, pretty much.
00:22:05	But reading each other's
00:22:09	manuscripts.
00:22:09	Like if I read her manuscript I
00:22:11	might make ten or twelve marks
00:22:14	per page, a lot of times
00:22:17	questioning word choices
00:22:18	saying, "Wow, that's really
00:22:19	nice," various kinds of
00:22:20	remarks.
00:22:23	The co-authoring was very
00:22:25	different.
00:22:25	We went into it blind, we just
00:22:29	started writing.
00:22:31	And we had two characters, a
00:22:32	boy and a girl and originally
00:22:34	we thought she'd write the girl
00:22:36	and I'd write the boy, but by
00:22:38	the time we had ten pages
00:22:39	written we were stepping all
00:22:40	over each other.
00:22:41	You know, I was re-writing her
00:22:43	boy stuff, she was re-writing
00:22:45	my girl stuff and she would
00:22:47	write two scenes, one from the
00:22:48	boy's point of view and one
00:22:49	from the girl's point of view
00:22:50	and then I'd tear her scene in
00:22:52	half and I'd add something
00:22:53	else.
00:22:54	By the time we finished the
00:22:55	book, eighty percent of that
00:22:58	book I couldn't tell you who
00:23:00	wrote a particular scene.
00:23:03	Some of them I remember writing
00:23:04	and some of them I remember her
00:23:06	writing, but it was a very
00:23:07	organic back and forth process
00:23:09	with a lot of re-writing and I
00:23:12	would say it wasn't painful.
00:23:14	It wasn't so bad emotionally, I
00:23:16	mean it wasn't like we were
00:23:16	fighting, but it's just hard to
00:23:19	have your writing stepped on
00:23:20	every day, even if it's getting
00:23:21	stepped on in a good way.
00:23:24	Is that how you describe it
00:23:24	to each other, "you've been
00:23:26	stepping on my writing," or
00:23:28	"you've been working with my
00:23:29	writing, I appreciate what
00:23:31	you've done." You said you're
00:23:33	not fighting, but that's the
00:23:34	moment that it becomes the
00:23:36	difficult negotiation because
00:23:39	what if she's got something she
00:23:40	really liked written and you
00:23:43	change it?
00:23:43	How do you negotiate that with
00:23:44	her?
00:23:45	Well, neither Mary nor I
00:23:50	have a big attachment to
00:23:55	particular words and sentences
00:23:57	and things.
00:24:00	We're both extremely receptive
00:24:02	to editorial input.
00:24:04	There are times when she will
00:24:08	suggest something to me and I
00:24:09	will ignore her and times when
00:24:11	I'll suggest something to her
00:24:11	and she'll ignore me, but
00:24:14	they're few and far between.
00:24:17	Is she also an outliner when
00:24:18	she writes?
00:24:20	I mean, you said you will
00:24:21	discard your outlines.
00:24:23	I'm curious how often those
00:24:24	outlines in your head.
00:24:25	Yeah.
00:24:26	Well when I see an outline,
00:24:28	like an outline for the Klaatu
00:24:30	Diskos, which is going to run
00:24:32	about nine hundred pages I
00:24:33	think, is about three pages
00:24:36	long.
00:24:38	So it's very, very, very loose
00:24:41	and Mary's pretty much the same
00:24:41	way.
00:24:44	I have a good friend who writes
00:24:47	mysteries whose outline goes to
00:24:49	forty pages for a
00:24:51	seventy-thousand-word book and
00:24:54	he'll work for months on the
00:24:57	outline and then he'll write
00:24:58	the book in a month.
00:25:00	He actually spends more time
00:25:01	planning it.
00:25:02	I mean he's got it right down
00:25:03	to the chapter breaks and
00:25:05	exactly what happens in each
00:25:05	chapter.
00:25:07	Man, I have tried to work that
00:25:08	way and I cannot do it, I don't
00:25:09	know why.
00:25:10	It makes sense.
00:25:12	If you have the kind of mind
00:25:14	that can do that, you know,
00:25:15	that can create a story like
00:25:16	that and then actually follow
00:25:17	your own outline without
00:25:19	letting a bunch of.
00:25:21	I mean if I was doing that some
00:25:23	character would walk in and say
00:25:25	something to totally destroy
00:25:27	the rest of the outline by page
00:25:28	six.
00:25:30	But can't you get rid of the
00:25:31	character then?
00:25:32	Why is it that you're holding
00:25:33	on to the character if that
00:25:34	happens and you recognize that
00:25:35	happening?
00:25:36	What makes you value that
00:25:37	character over the outline that
00:25:40	you have?
00:25:40	Well some characters are
00:25:41	more fun to spend time with
00:25:43	than others.
00:25:44	If I've got two characters
00:25:46	having a conversation and
00:25:47	they're moving the story
00:25:49	forward in their conversation,
00:25:50	they're having coffee and
00:25:51	they're figuring something out
00:25:52	and then for some reason I
00:25:54	decide their friend Chuck
00:25:55	should walk into the room and
00:25:57	say or do something really
00:26:00	interesting or outrageous,
00:26:03	instead of going, "I have to
00:26:03	get rid of Chuck," where my
00:26:04	mind goes is, "How can I take
00:26:06	this outrageous thing and make
00:26:08	it work further down the story?
00:26:09	How can I weave it in?
00:26:11	How can I make this as
00:26:12	complicated and difficult and
00:26:14	maddening as I possibly can?"
00:26:19	Why do you think that appeals
00:26:20	to you?
00:26:20	Why do you think that sense of
00:26:21	maddening and difficult
00:26:23	plotting appeals to you?
00:26:25	Is it a challenge to see if you
00:26:27	can get yourself out of it?
00:26:28	The challenge is certainly
00:26:29	part of it.
00:26:30	Stubbornness is also part of
00:26:33	it.
00:26:35	If I have an idea to hang a
00:26:46	painting on a wall and there's
00:26:48	no stud where I want to hang
00:26:50	the painting, it's like I'm the
00:26:51	kind of person who will tear
00:26:52	the wall down and put a new
00:26:53	stud up or hang the painting
00:26:54	where I want it.
00:26:56	It's not a personality trait
00:26:57	that is particularly useful to
00:26:59	me and I can't recommend it to
00:27:00	anyone.
00:27:02	But it goes over well in the
00:27:03	writing of books, it helps.
00:27:05	Well it works for me.
00:27:07	It took me a long time to
00:27:08	figure out how to do it.
00:27:09	I mean I was trying to write
00:27:11	books for twenty years before I
00:27:13	succeeded, so it took a long
00:27:14	time for me to figure out how
00:27:15	to work around who I am.
00:27:25	Last question, in thirty
00:27:27	seconds, who are the authors
00:27:29	that most influence you when
00:27:31	you're writing?
00:27:33	Who do you think of when you're
00:27:33	writing?
00:27:34	You have a very long list on
00:27:35	your website.
00:27:36	Well I think of P.G.
00:27:38	Woodhouse.
00:27:39	I think of James M.
00:27:42	Cain.
00:27:45	I think of Elmore Leonard.
00:27:50	Actually Elmore Leonard was
00:27:52	probably one of the biggest
00:27:56	influences on me writing work
00:27:57	that was publishable.
00:27:58	Ok.
00:27:59	Well, I want thank you very
00:28:02	much for being here on Writers
00:28:03	Talk.
00:28:04	My pleasure.
00:28:04	And from the Center for the
00:28:05	Study and Teaching of Writing
00:28:06	at The Ohio State University
00:28:07	this is Doug Dangler saying,
00:28:08	keep writing.
00:28:10

Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions