| 00:00:03 | |
| 00:00:08 | >>From the Center for the Study and the Teaching |
| 00:00:10 | of Writing at The Ohio State University, this is |
| 00:00:12 | Writers Talk. I'm Doug Dangler. Wayne Pacelle is |
| 00:00:15 | the President and CEO of the ten million-member |
| 00:00:18 | Humane Society of the United States, the nation's |
| 00:00:21 | largest animal advocacy group. |
| 00:00:24 | He is an active speaker, blogger and author with |
| 00:00:26 | his most recent book just out, The Bond: Our |
| 00:00:29 | Kinship with Animals, Our Call to Defend Them, |
| 00:00:32 | a New York Times best seller its first week. |
| 00:00:34 | Welcome to Writers Talk, Wayne. |
| 00:00:36 | >>Doug, glad to be with you. |
| 00:00:37 | >>Alright, well I'm curious about your background. |
| 00:00:39 | >>Yes. |
| 00:00:40 | >>You have a bachelors in history and studies in |
| 00:00:42 | the environment and at age 23 you were appointed |
| 00:00:44 | the Executive Director of the Fund for Animals. |
| 00:00:47 | It's a big jump. How did you go from history and |
| 00:00:50 | studies in the environment to working as the |
| 00:00:53 | Executive Director for the Funds for Animals? |
| 00:00:56 | >>Well I always loved animals, not surprisingly |
| 00:00:58 | given I've written a book called The Bond. |
| 00:01:01 | I started an animal advocacy group when I was in |
| 00:01:05 | college in Connecticut and I was actually going |
| 00:01:07 | to go to law school, but then right after a few |
| 00:01:10 | animal organizations had sort of followed some of |
| 00:01:13 | my work and one of them offered me a job writing. |
| 00:01:15 | I actually did a year's worth of writing for a |
| 00:01:17 | magazine in the field and then Cleveland Amory, |
| 00:01:20 | who was a legendary advocate for animals and a |
| 00:01:24 | very noted author himself, kind of took interest |
| 00:01:27 | in some of my work and I guess some of my |
| 00:01:29 | potential and he offered me a job beyond my |
| 00:01:34 | experience level for sure, but I worked hard at |
| 00:01:38 | it and I worked there for five and a half years |
| 00:01:41 | before I moved on to the |
| 00:01:45 | Humane Society of the United States. |
| 00:01:47 | >>What did you learn in that job, since this is |
| 00:01:49 | Writers Talk? So there is a lot of writing in history, |
| 00:01:51 | but what were some of the things that stay with |
| 00:01:54 | you from this day about having to do that year |
| 00:01:57 | of writing and then moving into another community? |
| 00:02:02 | >>Well you know history of course does acquaint |
| 00:02:04 | you with fabulous nonfiction work and historical |
| 00:02:07 | work. I was really drawn to that. |
| 00:02:09 | Then writing for a magazine I was doing news |
| 00:02:13 | reporting, I was doing feature-length stuff, I |
| 00:02:15 | was doing book reviews so it just kind of |
| 00:02:17 | enhanced my interest in that and of course it was |
| 00:02:19 | narrow issues given I was mainly talking about |
| 00:02:23 | animal welfare issues and the human interface |
| 00:02:27 | with animals. Then I had this wonderful experience |
| 00:02:29 | with Cleveland Amory. He wrote a bunch of best |
| 00:02:31 | selling books. He was a social historian. |
| 00:02:34 | He wrote a book called The Proper Bostonians and |
| 00:02:36 | another one called Who Killed Society?, but then |
| 00:02:38 | he wrote a best selling book about him and his |
| 00:02:41 | cat which was a tremendously entertaining, funny, |
| 00:02:43 | literate book called The Cat Who Came for |
| 00:02:48 | Christmas. It sounds like a very soft title, but it |
| 00:02:51 | was a number one New York Times best seller. |
| 00:02:54 | I talked to Cleveland about his own craft and how |
| 00:02:55 | he thought about books and what sort of process |
| 00:02:57 | he engaged in writing a book and it kind of all |
| 00:03:02 | stuck with me. One day I was going to turn my |
| 00:03:06 | attention to a book and his own kind of teaching |
| 00:03:10 | was really important to me. |
| 00:03:13 | >>So now you've turned to this book and maybe |
| 00:03:16 | like you said part of it is coming from that experience |
| 00:03:18 | of finding out about The Cat Who Came for Christmas. |
| 00:03:22 | >>Yeah, right. |
| 00:03:23 | >>Tell me about this book. You've got a lot of |
| 00:03:25 | things that are on your plate as the president |
| 00:03:27 | and CEO. How did you have time to write it? |
| 00:03:29 | >>Well, I knew that would be one of my greatest |
| 00:03:32 | challenges. Writing a book is a difficult task in the |
| 00:03:35 | best of circumstances. You have all the time in the |
| 00:03:37 | world, but it's still tough. I had this additional |
| 00:03:40 | confounding element that my job is consuming. |
| 00:03:44 | I mean, we are a ten million-member organization, |
| 00:03:47 | as you say. We've got one hundred and fifty million |
| 00:03:50 | dollar budget. I've got a hundred staff. |
| 00:03:52 | I'm deeply engaged in battling on these issues |
| 00:03:56 | that we focus on and try to spread the word. |
| 00:03:58 | I actually have a friend, Matthew Skully, who |
| 00:04:00 | wrote a book called Dominion, and his book was |
| 00:04:02 | one of the most critically acclaimed books in the |
| 00:04:05 | field of animal welfare. Matthew was a speechwriter |
| 00:04:09 | for President Bush and actually wrote his book |
| 00:04:16 | during the campaign, the 2000 campaign, plus |
| 00:04:19 | sometime into the first Bush administration. |
| 00:04:22 | He got up at four every morning and wrote from |
| 00:04:26 | four to eight and then did his job speech writing, |
| 00:04:29 | whether for the campaign or for the president. |
| 00:04:34 | I thought if he could do that then I can do that. |
| 00:04:38 | >>It's a four a.m. rise time for you. |
| 00:04:41 | >>Four a.m. rise time. When the phone is not |
| 00:04:43 | ringing, when the e-mail isn't flowing in, then |
| 00:04:46 | I can concentrate and then I would write for two |
| 00:04:49 | or three or four hours or research or do all the |
| 00:04:51 | things I want for the book. |
| 00:04:52 | I would do my work during the day at HSUS and |
| 00:04:53 | then sometimes at night I would turn to it at |
| 00:04:55 | eight or nine o'clock and I would start with that |
| 00:04:56 | process all over again. |
| 00:04:57 | >>So how long did that process take? |
| 00:04:59 | How long are you getting up at four? |
| 00:05:03 | >>Well, you know, the book proposal took me |
| 00:05:06 | eight months because I was really trying to |
| 00:05:08 | frame. I'm the kind of guy drawn to the big picture. |
| 00:05:12 | This is not just a sympathetic story about a boy |
| 00:05:14 | and his dog; this is a much bigger, richer, |
| 00:05:15 | fuller treatment. Not to diminish those other works |
| 00:05:17 | about a boy and his dog in any way. I decided |
| 00:05:21 | that I wanted to take this very expansive view. |
| 00:05:27 | It took me eight months to do that proposal and |
| 00:05:29 | then I went to New York, I got an agent, I met |
| 00:05:32 | with all the big publishing houses and they all |
| 00:05:35 | bid on the book and eventually I settled with |
| 00:05:36 | William Morrow from Harper Collins. |
| 00:05:39 | Once I signed that dotted line I had one year. |
| 00:05:43 | I was just nose to the grindstone. Every single |
| 00:05:45 | day I was devoting time to the book as long |
| 00:05:47 | as I could. I was traveling a lot; I was writing |
| 00:05:49 | on planes, I was writing in airports. |
| 00:05:53 | I have the ability to compartmentalize, so there |
| 00:05:56 | is a lot of tumult around me and I can still |
| 00:05:59 | concentrate. I just have a fabulous staff. |
| 00:06:02 | I could consult doctors and wildlife biologists |
| 00:06:04 | and others on our staff if I had questions. |
| 00:06:06 | They helped me with some of the research elements |
| 00:06:08 | of this, getting me papers and information and |
| 00:06:13 | that was a great benefit to the whole process. |
| 00:06:16 | >>I noticed there were a lot of footnotes in |
| 00:06:18 | this book, a surprisingly large number. |
| 00:06:20 | Also, you have an excellent index. |
| 00:06:22 | I have to say hooray for the index because it |
| 00:06:24 | allows you to go back and forth and look up some |
| 00:06:26 | interesting aspects that I wanted to talk to you |
| 00:06:30 | about. That's how you need a research staff. |
| 00:06:34 | Is that what you're getting at? |
| 00:06:36 | >>Well, I had it and I'm not sure you need it. |
| 00:06:38 | I really felt like I just wanted to tie every |
| 00:06:39 | loose end together with this book. |
| 00:06:44 | The work that we do is tremendously fulfilling, |
| 00:06:46 | very popular in America, but we do have our share |
| 00:06:50 | of critics and I wanted to make this bulletproof. |
| 00:06:53 | I read a gazillion books it seemed like and I did |
| 00:06:57 | a lot of research, plus, I just had my two |
| 00:06:59 | decades worth of emersion in this field. |
| 00:07:02 | I was so intimately familiar. I used narrative |
| 00:07:04 | devices to try to illuminate these issues. |
| 00:07:10 | This is not just a compendium of facts, I put |
| 00:07:12 | myself in the middle of these stories in order to |
| 00:07:14 | create a story and narrative so it's interesting |
| 00:07:18 | and engaging to the reader. At the end of the |
| 00:07:20 | process I wanted to make sure I had all the facts |
| 00:07:22 | in line so I asked my staff to review it, whether |
| 00:07:24 | the program experts in wildlife or companion |
| 00:07:29 | animals or farm animals and then our research |
| 00:07:31 | staff gave me papers and others to make sure |
| 00:07:32 | that I was hitting it right on point on all these details. |
| 00:07:39 | >>When you do research a lot of times you end |
| 00:07:41 | up with things you didn't really expect. |
| 00:07:42 | Tell me about moments like that for you in here |
| 00:07:44 | when you come up on something you think I thought |
| 00:07:46 | I knew this but there's a different take on it |
| 00:07:48 | and it's going to cause me trouble in writing it |
| 00:07:50 | or in my conceptualization. How often did that happen? |
| 00:07:51 | >>You know, I was so familiar with the set of |
| 00:07:53 | topics. You pick and choose. I mean you can't |
| 00:07:59 | write a book about all human relations with animals. |
| 00:08:03 | This is one of the central questions of the human |
| 00:08:06 | experience is our relationship with animals and |
| 00:08:08 | nature. We have to pick and choose, but I would |
| 00:08:10 | say that I really took some jabs at some organizations |
| 00:08:12 | in this. I took aim at the National Riffle Association |
| 00:08:15 | frankly because it's been standing in the way of |
| 00:08:19 | some very legitimate reforms like outlawing |
| 00:08:24 | pigeon shooting in Pennsylvania, or stopping bear |
| 00:08:26 | bating. I wanted to make sure I had all the facts right |
| 00:08:29 | in there so I did some research on that like the |
| 00:08:32 | use of a lead shot, for instance. If a hunter is |
| 00:08:34 | shooting waterfowl it is no longer permissible |
| 00:08:37 | to use lead shot. It was banned in the mid-1980s, |
| 00:08:40 | but for many other species lead shot is permitted |
| 00:08:42 | and when it's discharged it pollutes the |
| 00:08:45 | environment, if you will. Sometimes animals shot |
| 00:08:50 | by hunters are filled with lead and they aren't |
| 00:08:54 | retrieved by the hunter. They are wounded |
| 00:08:56 | and they go off. Carrion-feeding birds like |
| 00:08:59 | the California condors, they may feed on the |
| 00:09:01 | carcass of the animal not retrieved. |
| 00:09:03 | I did a lot of research on this whole lead shot |
| 00:09:04 | issue and figuring out what the toxicity of the |
| 00:09:08 | lead was and what the frequency of death was and |
| 00:09:09 | the causes. This lead me into the scientific literature |
| 00:09:13 | in many ways and it was really compelling, powerful |
| 00:09:16 | information and I wanted to include it in the book. |
| 00:09:19 | >>Ok. Well I think you had something you were |
| 00:09:22 | going to read to sort of set up some aspects of that. |
| 00:09:24 | So please, go ahead. |
| 00:09:27 | >>Yes. Well this is from the preface. I wrote a |
| 00:09:29 | preface and then an introduction and I hit a lot |
| 00:09:32 | of the big issues in the book. I think this two |
| 00:09:35 | paragraphs kind of sets up some of my thinking |
| 00:09:38 | on the book. "As harsh as nature is for animals, |
| 00:09:41 | cruelty comes only from human hands. |
| 00:09:45 | We're the creature of conscience, aware of the |
| 00:09:47 | wrongs we do and fully capable of making things |
| 00:09:49 | right. Our best instincts will always tend in that |
| 00:09:53 | direction because a bond with animals is built |
| 00:09:56 | into every one of us. That bond of kinship and |
| 00:10:00 | fellow feeling has been with us for the entire |
| 00:10:03 | arch of human experience, from our first bare |
| 00:10:06 | footsteps on the planet, through the era of |
| 00:10:09 | domestication of animals and into the modern age. |
| 00:10:12 | For all that sets humanity apart, animals remain |
| 00:10:15 | our companions in creation. |
| 00:10:16 | To borrow a phrase from Pope Benedict XVI, |
| 00:10:21 | 'Bound up with us in the story of life on Earth, |
| 00:10:24 | every act of callousness towards an animal is a |
| 00:10:27 | betrayal of that bond and every act of kindness |
| 00:10:30 | we keep faith with the bond and broadly speaking |
| 00:10:32 | the whole mission of the animal welfare cause is |
| 00:10:34 | to repair the bond, for their sake and for our |
| 00:10:36 | own.' In our day there are stresses and fractures |
| 00:10:38 | of the human-animals bond and some forces at |
| 00:10:41 | work would sever it once and for all. |
| 00:10:43 | They pull us in the wrong direction and away from |
| 00:10:44 | the decent honorable code that makes us care for |
| 00:10:48 | creatures that are entirely at our mercy. |
| 00:10:52 | Especially within the last two hundred years, |
| 00:10:54 | we've come to apply an industrial mindset to the |
| 00:10:55 | use of animals too often viewing them as if they |
| 00:10:58 | were nothing but articles of commerce and the raw |
| 00:11:00 | material of science, agriculture, and wildlife management. |
| 00:11:04 | Here as in other pursuits, human ingenuity has a |
| 00:11:08 | way of outrunning human conscience and |
| 00:11:11 | something's we do only because we can, forgetting |
| 00:11:13 | to ask whether we should." I think, Doug, it kind |
| 00:11:18 | of frames the issue when talking about this bond, |
| 00:11:20 | which kind of gives us a head start in doing the |
| 00:11:24 | right thing for animals, but then there's still |
| 00:11:26 | in our society so many manifestations of human |
| 00:11:28 | love and affection and appreciation for animals, |
| 00:11:31 | we also have so much cruelty. I say that cruelty |
| 00:11:34 | only comes from human hands, we're the ones |
| 00:11:36 | who do it. They're suffering in nature. I mean |
| 00:11:39 | animals at risk in wild settings and of course all |
| 00:11:43 | living organisms die, so it's not as if I'm saying |
| 00:11:47 | we have to have eternal life for all creatures. |
| 00:11:50 | I'm saying we must really take a serious moral |
| 00:11:53 | look at our conduct that causes misery and |
| 00:11:58 | suffering and cruelty to other creatures and then |
| 00:11:59 | I think we can really honor this bond and find a |
| 00:12:02 | way to live our lives, maintain a robust economy, |
| 00:12:07 | a high quality of life, but not leave a trail of |
| 00:12:09 | animal victims in the process. |
| 00:12:12 | >>And you outline some of that in the book at |
| 00:12:13 | the end talking about sort of scientific things |
| 00:12:16 | that have changed the ways that animals are |
| 00:12:17 | treated. I'd like to go back to one of the things |
| 00:12:20 | you mentioned in there. You say but cruelty only |
| 00:12:23 | comes at human hands, right? |
| 00:12:25 | >>Yes, right. |
| 00:12:27 | >>And one of the chapters in this book is |
| 00:12:29 | probably your most controversial chapter. |
| 00:12:32 | It's a controversial relationship with Michael Vick. |
| 00:12:34 | >>Yes, it is. |
| 00:12:36 | >>And you talk about meeting him in prison and |
| 00:12:40 | the belief you have that he can be a positive |
| 00:12:42 | force within the animal rights community. |
| 00:12:43 | Tell me about writing this section. Did you keep |
| 00:12:45 | notes on your interactions with him? Do you have |
| 00:12:47 | to rely on memory? How did you reconstruct this |
| 00:12:49 | and walk yourself through it? |
| 00:12:52 | >>Sure. Well, let me set it up a little bit because it's |
| 00:12:57 | got a lot of backstory to it. Of course the Humane Society |
| 00:13:00 | of the United States is as tough as any organization |
| 00:13:03 | can be on dog fighting. I mean we have the most |
| 00:13:06 | dedicated unit focused on dog fighting crimes and |
| 00:13:10 | I actually helped to write the 2002 Federal law under |
| 00:13:13 | which Michael Vick was prosecuted. |
| 00:13:17 | There was another Federal stature that was also |
| 00:13:19 | invoked to prosecute him, but it was the Federal |
| 00:13:23 | Animal Fighting Law that we were responsible for |
| 00:13:26 | that lead to his prosecution. We wanted him prosecuted. |
| 00:13:31 | No person is above the law. We wanted to make sure |
| 00:13:33 | that the federal prosecutors took this seriously and |
| 00:13:39 | they did very, very well in advancing this case. |
| 00:13:43 | We demanded that Vick be axed from the NFL and |
| 00:13:46 | that his sponsors drop him. We were not the least bit |
| 00:13:48 | soft in anyway on Michael Vick. |
| 00:13:50 | As his prison term was about to end, he reached |
| 00:13:53 | out to me through one of his intermediaries and |
| 00:13:56 | said he wanted to get involved in our anti-dog |
| 00:13:58 | fighting work, which again is the most developed |
| 00:14:00 | work in the field. I decided no, the guy is too |
| 00:14:05 | radioactive, too difficult. |
| 00:14:08 | We were so at odds with him that it was just too |
| 00:14:12 | big a leap, but then I had this nagging feeling |
| 00:14:14 | that what are we really about at the Humane |
| 00:14:16 | Society? We are really about change. |
| 00:14:18 | We're about people who do the wrong thing and |
| 00:14:20 | moving into a better place. We just don't take the |
| 00:14:22 | easy cases, we take the tough cases. We just don't |
| 00:14:26 | want to preach to a choir of a suburban housewife |
| 00:14:30 | who is already very much in alignment with the |
| 00:14:31 | velocity of the Human Society of the United States. |
| 00:14:34 | We have to take people who are really in a bad |
| 00:14:37 | state and try to help them get to a better place. |
| 00:14:41 | The second piece is that I knew from our work |
| 00:14:44 | against dog fighting that the biggest growth |
| 00:14:45 | ahead for dog fighting was urban based dog |
| 00:14:48 | fighting, what we call street fighting. |
| 00:14:49 | Young African American kids often getting pit |
| 00:14:51 | bulls for their own reasons staging fights in |
| 00:14:55 | back alleys and abandoned buildings and even on |
| 00:14:56 | the street, hence the name street fighting. |
| 00:14:59 | I thought, who better to offer these kids a |
| 00:15:01 | cautionary tale about this than Michael Vick. |
| 00:15:03 | So after a lot of soul searching and a lot of |
| 00:15:06 | reflection I agreed to meet him. |
| 00:15:10 | I flew out to Leavenworth penitentiary with his |
| 00:15:11 | lawyer and I sat down with him and had a one-hour |
| 00:15:14 | courtyard conversation with him, which I recount |
| 00:15:18 | in the opening of the fourth chapter. |
| 00:15:20 | I took notes right after the conversation ended. |
| 00:15:24 | I didn't record it, but I took notes immediately |
| 00:15:25 | afterwards. I met with Vick a second time after |
| 00:15:28 | he got out of jail and he was in home confinement |
| 00:15:30 | for three months. I went to his home in Hampton Roads, |
| 00:15:32 | Virginia and sat with him for a few hours and really |
| 00:15:34 | kind of probed what happened in his life and when |
| 00:15:37 | he started. He told me he started dog fighting when |
| 00:15:39 | he was seven years old and all the kids were |
| 00:15:43 | engaged in dog fighting. They were fighting dogs |
| 00:15:45 | during the day and chasing cats and killing them |
| 00:15:46 | with pit bulls at night. He just continued to do it |
| 00:15:49 | as he got older. Even when he was in college at |
| 00:15:51 | Virginia Tech breaking records and making a name |
| 00:15:56 | for himself, we was still doing it. Even when he was |
| 00:15:59 | an Atlanta Falcon, every week his one day off he |
| 00:16:02 | would fly to Virginia to fight dogs. |
| 00:16:04 | It was staggering to me that he did it, but he |
| 00:16:06 | was transparent with me and he said he wanted to |
| 00:16:10 | make a long-term commitment to help us with our |
| 00:16:12 | anti-dog fighting work and we've been doing it |
| 00:16:16 | since. It was a tough thing to begin with for me |
| 00:16:19 | to work with Michael Vick. A lot of our supporters |
| 00:16:23 | didn't understand it, but I would do it again. |
| 00:16:24 | It was actually exactly the way you want |
| 00:16:26 | something to play out: a man commits a terrible |
| 00:16:27 | crime, he's prosecuted for them under the laws |
| 00:16:31 | that we help write, he serves a meaningful |
| 00:16:33 | sentence in jail, when he's coming out of jail he |
| 00:16:36 | wants to now turn around, he wants to help |
| 00:16:41 | address the societal problem that he was caught |
| 00:16:44 | up in and he wants to reach others in part of a |
| 00:16:48 | broader campaign to turn the problem around. |
| 00:16:51 | To me that's exactly the way we want our penal |
| 00:16:52 | system to work and I felt that it was important |
| 00:16:55 | for me to recount that story because it was such |
| 00:16:57 | a conflicted thing for me to go through. |
| 00:17:00 | >>Right. One of the things that I felt as I was |
| 00:17:02 | reading it is that I can sense some of the conflict |
| 00:17:05 | that you had with him. I also sense that there is |
| 00:17:08 | a moment in which you say you can use this as |
| 00:17:11 | a moment of this person has redemption. |
| 00:17:14 | This person has changed. |
| 00:17:16 | Then there is that sort of cynical moment when |
| 00:17:17 | you say well the guy is also just getting back |
| 00:17:20 | into football. Are there other high profile, and |
| 00:17:22 | I can't think of any, that would fit this mold as well? |
| 00:17:25 | Does it just mean that somebody high profile |
| 00:17:29 | would be able to go through the process that you |
| 00:17:34 | described? Are there others? If I were a pit bull |
| 00:17:38 | fighter, would I get this sort of redemption? |
| 00:17:42 | >>Well let me just say in general that the |
| 00:17:44 | humane movement is a movement full of sinners. |
| 00:17:46 | Animal use is caught up in our daily lives. |
| 00:17:51 | We're eating meat, we're wearing clothing that |
| 00:17:52 | may come from animals, whether it's exotic skins |
| 00:17:55 | or fur, many people have hunted throughout their |
| 00:17:59 | life, maybe even engaged in trapping. |
| 00:18:03 | We are all caught up in this world where we have |
| 00:18:06 | all these mixed messages about animals, where we |
| 00:18:09 | say we love them, we say we're against cruelty, |
| 00:18:11 | yet we have factory farming, we have trophy |
| 00:18:13 | hunting, we have trapped for fur and there's |
| 00:18:15 | animal testing going on around us. |
| 00:18:18 | None of us are perfect and I say some of my own |
| 00:18:23 | conduct when I was a kid is something I was not |
| 00:18:24 | proud about and not fully informed. |
| 00:18:26 | I didn't make all the right decisions. |
| 00:18:28 | Some of the most powerful voices in our field are |
| 00:18:30 | ex-ranchers who are kind of industrial style, |
| 00:18:35 | agricultural operators who now show a new way. |
| 00:18:38 | I have a friend who is an ex-primate researcher. |
| 00:18:40 | He was doing terrible things to primates in |
| 00:18:42 | laboratory settings and now he's one of the best |
| 00:18:45 | advocates for helping these animals and calling |
| 00:18:49 | wasteful, inhumane research exactly that. |
| 00:18:53 | I feel like our whole movement is populated and |
| 00:18:55 | that was very instructive to me. I didn't feel like |
| 00:18:59 | I was breaking new ground with this. |
| 00:19:01 | I was one of the only leaders of a major group |
| 00:19:04 | who was willing to work with Vick at the time, |
| 00:19:06 | but I'm very cognisant that we want to have |
| 00:19:09 | people moving in the right direction and our |
| 00:19:11 | movement is full of those people. |
| 00:19:13 | >>I think one of the interesting things about |
| 00:19:14 | this book and for someone like you to write this |
| 00:19:16 | book is that you do tread in some ways. |
| 00:19:18 | You mentioned at the beginning a line at which |
| 00:19:21 | you're taking aim at certain groups like the NRA |
| 00:19:23 | and other groups that you're not taking. |
| 00:19:25 | I was actually sort of surprised when you |
| 00:19:28 | mentioned Sarah Palin and the wolf hunting. |
| 00:19:32 | The question I have on that is what is your. |
| 00:19:38 | You seem to be establishing a fairly neutral |
| 00:19:42 | political tone, or trying to be politically |
| 00:19:44 | neutral for the good of the organization and I'm |
| 00:19:47 | wondering how difficult that was for you to write |
| 00:19:51 | about. If you set aside personal feelings and |
| 00:19:53 | just said. You talk about how there are some |
| 00:19:57 | people who are republicans are good allies and |
| 00:19:59 | some people are democrats. |
| 00:20:00 | >>Not difficult at all. I have friends in Congress |
| 00:20:02 | and many state legislatures on both sides of |
| 00:20:06 | the aisle and we value them greatly. I consider this |
| 00:20:09 | issue, being decent to animals, a universal value. |
| 00:20:15 | I mean opposition to cruelty is something that |
| 00:20:18 | everyone should hold. It would be the worse thing |
| 00:20:20 | imaginable for it to be the province of one political |
| 00:20:21 | party and to be a football that's contested between |
| 00:20:24 | these two parties. I am studiously nonpartisan in |
| 00:20:26 | our work and I'll criticize Sarah Palin for promoting |
| 00:20:30 | aerial wolf gunning and I'll criticize a Democrat on |
| 00:20:35 | the add committee, like former U.S. representative |
| 00:20:39 | Charlie Stenholm from Texas, for defending terrible |
| 00:20:43 | practices like downer cows in the food supply. |
| 00:20:47 | I went after governor Stenholm for getting on the |
| 00:20:52 | floor and saying no sick animal can ever get into |
| 00:20:54 | the food supply and we were trying to pass |
| 00:20:57 | legislation in Congress to require the humane |
| 00:20:58 | euthanasia of animals too sick and injured to |
| 00:21:01 | walk at slaughter plants. I mean these animals are |
| 00:21:03 | down, ill, or severely injured and these folks are |
| 00:21:07 | trying to get them in the slaughterhouse to feed |
| 00:21:10 | ground beef to our kids. I just found that WORD |
| 00:21:13 | and I detail it in my chapter on factory farming. |
| 00:21:17 | >>Right. And I had to look up downer cow, by |
| 00:21:22 | the way, which I thought in a sick way, humorously |
| 00:21:24 | named because it's down but it's also like that's a |
| 00:21:28 | downer cow. I thought what an odd term to describe it. |
| 00:21:31 | >>It is. I had to look it up myself way back when I |
| 00:21:35 | first heard it, but it literally means the animal |
| 00:21:37 | is down on the ground and can't get up. |
| 00:21:38 | >>And then there's downed cows that can apparently |
| 00:21:40 | get back up, but the downer cows are the ones that are down. |
| 00:21:41 | >>I think they're interchangeable. Sometimes the |
| 00:21:44 | animals are non-ambulatory as they say. They can't walk. |
| 00:21:47 | What I documented was that in an investigation |
| 00:21:50 | that we did at a southern California slaughter |
| 00:21:53 | plant they were tormenting these cows. |
| 00:21:55 | They were ramming them with forklifts and they |
| 00:21:58 | were using a hot shot on their eyes and their |
| 00:22:01 | genital areas. They even put water hoses in their |
| 00:22:04 | mouths to cause them such distress that they |
| 00:22:06 | actually would get up because they were trying |
| 00:22:08 | to avoid their tormentors. They would then move |
| 00:22:10 | them over to the slaughter area to kill them because |
| 00:22:13 | it was so difficult to move these large cows when |
| 00:22:15 | they couldn't walk on their own. |
| 00:22:19 | >>Ok. What part of this book did you find the most |
| 00:22:20 | challenging to write? |
| 00:22:21 | What part did you have the most difficulty? |
| 00:22:23 | >>You know, I think the first part. The first chapter |
| 00:22:26 | of the book was very difficult because I kind of had |
| 00:22:30 | to frame the broader issue of our bond with animals. |
| 00:22:33 | Chapter one is called, "The Ties that Bond" and I |
| 00:22:38 | talk about the biochemistry of the bond of pet |
| 00:22:41 | keeping through the ages so I had to take |
| 00:22:43 | historical look at how we've viewed animals over |
| 00:22:45 | time. The rise of domestication, which is one of |
| 00:22:47 | the transformative events in the human |
| 00:22:51 | experience. I mean nothing changed human |
| 00:22:54 | culture and experience more than animal |
| 00:22:56 | domestication. Animal sacrifice I looked at even |
| 00:22:58 | as a way to represent the bond. |
| 00:23:00 | Only certain animals where sacrificed and they |
| 00:23:03 | had to be well cared for, only religious leaders |
| 00:23:05 | could sacrifice the animals so I even said in |
| 00:23:08 | that ritual which we now think about as |
| 00:23:11 | antithetical to any animals welfare sensibility, |
| 00:23:13 | there's actually some sort of bond built into it. |
| 00:23:16 | Then I talked about the emergence of the modern |
| 00:23:23 | era and the rise of the humane movement. |
| 00:23:24 | The animal welfare in the great republic of the |
| 00:23:27 | future, which is a comment from Henry Salt, a |
| 00:23:28 | beautiful quote that I make, so I think that |
| 00:23:31 | chapter in some ways because of the enormous |
| 00:23:35 | arch of experience. I also talked about what the |
| 00:23:39 | underlying basis of our connection with animals |
| 00:23:42 | is not some weepy, sentimentalism that I have or |
| 00:23:44 | that others have, it's really there's something |
| 00:23:46 | built into us that connects us to other living beings. |
| 00:23:51 | It's why we have two thirds of the American |
| 00:23:54 | households with pets, why we love wildlife, why |
| 00:23:55 | we have animal planet on television. |
| 00:23:57 | I mean, we are drawn to other creatures. |
| 00:23:59 | I just didn't just want to say, "ok, we're drawn |
| 00:24:00 | to them", I wanted to explain what underlies it |
| 00:24:02 | and I think in that chapter I do my best in |
| 00:24:04 | providing a survey of what's going on here. |
| 00:24:09 | >>Who do you see as the audience for your book? |
| 00:24:11 | Who do you really want or expect to buy? |
| 00:24:14 | >>You know really I have multiple audiences. |
| 00:24:18 | Clearly this is something that I wrote to deepen |
| 00:24:21 | an understanding about animal protection issues, |
| 00:24:25 | about the history of our relationship with |
| 00:24:28 | animals, and to point a way forward for us in |
| 00:24:30 | society. Obviously our members would be very |
| 00:24:33 | interested in it, but it's definitely aimed at |
| 00:24:35 | mainstream American culture. |
| 00:24:38 | I had actually hoped that many people within |
| 00:24:41 | animals use industries that sometimes we have |
| 00:24:45 | very good relations and sometimes not so good |
| 00:24:47 | relations would read it as well as a very |
| 00:24:50 | coherent, logical treatment of how we can get |
| 00:24:54 | beyond some of these problems. |
| 00:24:57 | I don't want to be stuck in the mud in this |
| 00:24:59 | issue. I just don't want warfare on the tough issues |
| 00:25:01 | here. You've got some easy issues like dog fighting |
| 00:25:04 | and about proper pet care, but you have tougher |
| 00:25:08 | issues like factory farming. |
| 00:25:10 | How do we produce food in a society where we have |
| 00:25:12 | three hundred and ten million people in American |
| 00:25:15 | and seven billion worldwide and those numbers are |
| 00:25:17 | both going to grow? How do we do that without |
| 00:25:19 | confining animals and mutilating them and causing |
| 00:25:21 | them harm on these factory farms? |
| 00:25:23 | In Ohio we've really forged some important |
| 00:25:26 | relationships with the leaders of Ohio's |
| 00:25:30 | agriculture community and I am so proud about |
| 00:25:33 | that and I'm so appreciative of the dialogue that |
| 00:25:36 | we're having. I want together for us to figure out these |
| 00:25:39 | solutions. I don't just want to say you do it or I do it, |
| 00:25:41 | but I want to say together let's figure it out so |
| 00:25:44 | we can all win. I want farmers to win, I want members |
| 00:25:47 | to win, I want all of society to win. I want to have a |
| 00:25:50 | robust economy and also to be good to animals. |
| 00:25:55 | That's the future for us, the humane economy, |
| 00:25:58 | which is the last chapter. |
| 00:26:00 | >>You can see that. You have a vision of that and |
| 00:26:02 | a vision that you're offering in the book. |
| 00:26:03 | You've got two minutes: what's that vision? How do you explain it? |
| 00:26:09 | |
| 00:26:09 | >>Well, it really is about the humane economy. |
| 00:26:14 | It's really not so much about animal rights, |
| 00:26:16 | which I don't really advocate for. I advocate for |
| 00:26:20 | human responsibility. It's really more about us |
| 00:26:24 | than it is about them. You have to understand |
| 00:26:26 | the basic framework with animals that they feel |
| 00:26:28 | pain, they suffer, they have a heartbeat, |
| 00:26:31 | they breathe air, they want to live. |
| 00:26:36 | I think we should use the genius and creativity |
| 00:26:37 | and innovation of the human mind to figure out |
| 00:26:40 | this set of problems that pass necessities, like |
| 00:26:42 | wearing a fur coat, are today's minor |
| 00:26:44 | conveniences for which we have alternatives. |
| 00:26:48 | Let's find the alternative so we can live a good |
| 00:26:50 | life and also give the animals a good life, too |
| 00:26:53 | and that's the humane economy. |
| 00:26:56 | A lot of people talk about the green economy, |
| 00:26:58 | having an economy that's built around |
| 00:26:59 | environmental sustainability, well this is about |
| 00:27:02 | having a strong economy and not causing harm to |
| 00:27:04 | animals, especially not in these severe, extreme ways. |
| 00:27:08 | >>Can you name some specific places where you |
| 00:27:11 | feel like the humane economy has really been |
| 00:27:14 | achieved or is much great achievement. We have a |
| 00:27:16 | lot of factory farms in Ohio. Are there other places? |
| 00:27:20 | >>Well the quintessential example which I invoke |
| 00:27:24 | in the book is from whaling to whale watching. |
| 00:27:27 | We were the biggest whaling nation in the world. |
| 00:27:31 | Now we're the biggest whale-watching nation. We're |
| 00:27:33 | opponents of whaling. I talk about seals and killing seals. |
| 00:27:37 | I've gone up to the ice flows of Canada and seen |
| 00:27:40 | the beauty of these seals and the nursery of the |
| 00:27:43 | north with their harp seals and hooded seals and |
| 00:27:46 | I think you can monetize that and make millions |
| 00:27:48 | of dollars. Killing the seals now generates so little |
| 00:27:51 | revenue because no one wants these seal pelts. |
| 00:27:53 | That's the old economy stubbornly clinging to |
| 00:27:55 | custom and tradition when in reality we have a |
| 00:27:59 | new economy to build it. But humane, sustainable |
| 00:28:03 | agriculture. We're really excited to be working with |
| 00:28:05 | farmers not only in Ohio, but all across the |
| 00:28:07 | country to build an agricultural model that's |
| 00:28:10 | productive, that produces safe food, but that's |
| 00:28:12 | also humane for the animals. |
| 00:28:15 | >>Ok. We will hope that Ohio will be able to |
| 00:28:17 | contribute to that and be in the forefront of that |
| 00:28:19 | as the movement moves forward. |
| 00:28:23 | >>And it has been. It's been a really great |
| 00:28:25 | relationship and we are working closely and |
| 00:28:27 | we're really excited to see progress. |
| 00:28:31 | >>Great. Well Wayne Pacelle, the President and |
| 00:28:34 | CEO of the Humane Society of the United States, |
| 00:28:36 | thank you for being here on Writers Talk. |
| 00:28:38 | >>Doug, thank you so much. |
| 00:28:39 | >>And from the Center for the Study and the |
| 00:28:42 | Teaching of Writing at The Ohio State University, |
| 00:28:43 | this is Doug Dangler. Keep writing. |
Note : Transcripts are compiled from uncorrected captions
